chicken is better

Hi S.H.

There’s a lot to unpack here.

What reason do you have to think that I am not feeling empathy for women in the same way that I feel empathy for another man?

I don’t need to imagine the situation that you have described. I feel that this situation would be hell-like for both dominated men and women. I did automatically feel that it was a nightmarish existence. I don’t want to say anything that normalises this existence because I truly believe that it is inherently wrong.

The definition does provide some explanation towards the lack of agency that I feel in female characters that are, as yet, unchanged by the Heroes Journey. Having said this, both your and Hana’s comments have made me think that there is likely something more going on here that just a loss of femineity.

I agree that Heroes can be nurturing and kind. But these traits are rarely displayed towards their adversaries. I hesitate to comment on the examples that you raise as I was specifically talking about fictional characters in my post. While you may think this isn’t much different I do believe that it is an important distinction for reasons to many to go into here. I posit that Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and even Jesus wouldn’t have had the success they had in the ‘Hero’ role had the opened with the ‘nurturing and kind’ play.

Heroes most certainly can be cooperative but once again I feel that this is a real world versus fictional world distinction. In fiction, heroes are defined by their adversaries and the struggles that they go through. That is the whole point of the concept of the unity of opposites. Two equal and opposite forces pitted against each other in a duel to the death. While a story doesn’t have to be this black and white it often is when you strip it down to its basest elements.

I agree with your comments about agency but once again need to focus the conversation back towards the fictional hero. Generally everyone in a story has agency but we are following a Hero, they are the one we are rooting for, so the rest of the cast’s agency really doesn’t concern us much. The question I was trying to raise is if the concept of agency is contrary to this definition of femineity, and I think on the face of it, it is. Having said this the concept appears much more complex than that.

I think ‘othering’ is dangerous and should be avoided wherever possible. I’m not sure that I agree with you at all on this point that we are taught to ‘other’ our opposite gender. I think that you are correct in your point that empathy is a learned skill but so is recognising the world outside ourselves. We do this early on when we realise there are other people who are distinct from ourselves. If we are all capable of learning this there must be an ability to learn empathy as well and I think that in general we do.

Your comment about stories been gender neural with male leads and stories with female leads been seen as for women is most interesting. I’m looking over my bookshelf at the moment and I cannot say that I feel this rings true. Having said this I have done little to no study on it. I think of Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll; Brida by Paulo Coelho; His Dark Materials Trilogy by Phillip Pullman. All of these stories have female leads and I would say none of them are targeted at or seen as for women.

I take your point about Huckleberry Finn and Pride and Prejudice but I do feel that you are quoting at the extreme, especially in regards to Mr. Finn. I feel that this comment is very true at the time of publishing. But I think that both these titles have moved a lot since then. I would say that Pride and Prejudice is a lot more mainstream than you make it out to be. By mainstream I mean accessible to both men and women equally. I feel Huckleberry has not aged well.

While it has been a long time since I have read either of these I would say that your choice kind of supports the argument against agency. Huckleberry, a male, has all the agency he could desire and off he goes on his river journey. The Bennet girls in Pride and Prejudice are the heroes but have little agency at all. Having said this the latter is a comical take on the expectation of courtship at the time and I think that its rather pointed humour directed at this ridiculous requirement is kind of the point of the novel.

So I feel that from these statements when you reach your conclusion that Men aren’t encourage to see the world through women’s eyes is inherently flawed. Even if I was to accept one of your points the rest of your argument collapses on the others.

Do you actually believe that there is often little choice for women apart from to defer to their parents and husbands?

I believe that you are right in that the balance in society is still very much on the anglo-males side but I do think that women have much more agency over their situations than your comment lets on.

Having said this I my post was never about the expectations placed on women in society. It was about what appears to make female characters become less themselves as they go through the Heroes Journey. On this point I am unsure what your feelings are. I believe you feel very strongly about the views that men have of women in our society and of female characters as well as the ability of real life Heroes to display female traits. I’m just not quite sure how these, sometimes disparate thoughts address my article.

Thank you for your comment S.H. I appreciate you taking the time.

Hi Hanna,
I agree I don’t really like the definition much myself but I think I needed something to start the discussion with.
I completely agree that we do need some great writers to work in this space.
I really like your comment about what defines you is your thoughts and interests. I think that this is very important and if you are a good writer these aspects of a character are easy to show. Perhaps if this is what is key I just need to focus on understanding these key aspects and then let the chips fall where they may, so to speak.
I’m a big fan of Pratchett. I must say that I think the witches might be a good example of a female hero – especially Granny Weatherwax. Thanks for the other suggestions I will have to check them out.
I appreciate you taking the time to comment.

Imagine a man who is doomed, due to societal expectations, to live a life of constant deference, and meek submission to the other people in his life. He doesn’t exercise agency because he is expected to depend on the advice of his family/spouse/somebody else when making major decisions. Doesn’t this automatically sound like a bleak miserable nightmare existence? But when you hear of a woman in that same life, it just feels normal? I challenge you to really think about this. Why would it not be just as horrible for a woman in that situation? Personally, it sounds like my definition of hell.

I believe that heroes can be nurturing and kind. (Gandhi? Martin Luther King? Jesus?) I believe that heroes can be cooperative instead of competetive. (Note that cooperation is not the same thing as deference, all though it may be seen that way.) I believe that heroes can be all the things that are considered feminine whether men or women. (Note the very respected male figures I listed above.) And one thing that I will say is that ALL heroes need agency. All non-heroes need agency too. There are very few humans who don’t want agency. Most people consider it an essential component of happiness.

Society allows men to grow up not really empathizing with women because women are seen as “other” to them. Women are also taught to see men as “other” but at the same time they are also taught to see things through men’s perspectives. Think of how stories with make heroes are seen as gender neutral books and stories with female lead characters often are seen as for women only. How normal is it to hear a woman say that she loves Huckleberry Finn compared to a man saying that he loves Pride and Prejudice? Men aren’t encouraged to see the world through women’s eyes and so some men can’t imagine that we have the same basic human needs that all humans have. Speaking of Pride and Prejudice, reread it from a fresh perspective. The main character doesn’t display a huge amount of agency, as per the values of her society (which is also the character’s/author’s values, since she’s a product of her time). And yet, every single chance that she has to actually exercise agency in a way that’s not frowned on by society, she does so, from small examples such as hiking to check on her sick sister, to larger ones such as rejecting the suit of a man she doesn’t love, even though the alternative is to grow poor and eventually die of starvation in genteel poverty. Even in societies where women are taught to defer to their parents and husbands, it’s not what we actually want out of life. It’s just that there’s often little choice.

Hi Hanna.

Thanks for your comment. I certainly wasn’t sure that it made them less feminine; it was just an idea that I wanted to flesh out as it had been bothering me for a while. I’m glad some people have been kind enough to comment.

I do stand by my comments that something happens to female characters during the Heroes Journey that doesn’t appear to happen to men. I’d really like to find out what this and why it is. Perhaps it is just the hetero male gaze that has dominated popular culture that is causing me to ‘think’ it is happening?

The definition of femininity that I use here is not mine. My knowledge of gender studies is limited at best. This is from Jessica Benjamin’s “The Bonds of Love: Psychoanalysis, Feminism and the Problems of Domination.” You can find this here: https://www.bookdepository.com/Bonds-Love-Psychoanalysis-Feminism-Problems-Domination-Jessica-Benjamin/9780394757308?ref=grid-view&qid=1564394543763&sr=1-1

I must take full responsibility for my ignorance on the topic. I discussed this with some associates of mine who had majored in gender studies and read a little. I admit I could have spent more time researching this topic.

I agree that you may be right that this topic I’ve been thinking of for a while may have coloured my view of the GOT characters. Thanks for pointing this out. I think it is really important to point out this sort of prejudice wherever we see it.

This certainly doesn’t stem from a hatred women. I think they are fantastic.

I really appreciate you commenting Hanna. I will have to see if I can think of any other reasons that may be influencing this perceived change in these Heroes for me.

Do you have any suggestions of film, tv or novels where strong female characters haven’t had to sacrifice their femininity/humanity (let’s just leave as undefined because I obviously am unable to define what the ‘thing’ is that I am finding that they are loosing or moving away from)?

Thanks Again.

Hi Hanna. I have.
Thanks for commenting.

No it does not make them less feminine. You define femininity in a really condescending and ignorant way and I find your views hard to swallow. I also belive that you think that women of GOT is less believable and human then the males is because of your own misogynist perception of what you call “female” charachters.

Thank you for taking the time to comment.

I do think I struggle with writing women characters – that’s kind of the point here.

I had hoped I had made it clear in the first paragraph that I am not talking about women. I am talking about female characters. I feel that there is a huge difference.

Of course you can have courage, strength and assertiveness and so can female characters. The point I was trying to make or question I was trying to raise is ‘Does this make them less feminine?’

I’m not really sure what your comment about someones foot around your neck is referring to – I’m going to guess you are talking about my paraphrasing of Jessica Benjamin. If this is the case than I agree with your comment. Of course a woman can live without this societal and individual domination. I think that the point Benjamin is making is that these are the norms that society and individual relationships are and have been based on. I don’t think at any point either she or I say that this is what should be.

Once again. Thanks for taking the time to comment.